0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

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metal450
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by metal450 »

IMO that's extremely not intuitive - I'd suggest having the identically-named command behave the same. Especially because it's specifically named "lossless," but per discussion above, in one view it's actually lossless but in the other view it's not (it silently throws away pixels).
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xnview
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by xnview »

metal450 wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:44 pm IMO that's extremely not intuitive - I'd suggest having the identically-named command behave the same. Especially because it's specifically named "lossless," but per discussion above, in one view it's actually lossless but in the other view it's not (it silently throws away pixels).
In browser your works always on file, in Viewer on image datas loaded
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metal450
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by metal450 »

That's the same as ur last reply - my statement remains. However it happens to be internally implemented, that's extremely not intuitive from a user perspective. Users of the software aren't are of its internal implementation, users will just see an identically-named feature doing completely different things. And again, it's specifically named "lossless" in both places, but per discussion above, the in one view it's actually lossless but in the other view it's not (it silently throws away pixels).

It means that doing actual "lossless" rotation when viewing images requires changing to browser mode, issuing the same identically-named command, then changing back to view mode.

If "lossless rotation" in view mode won't be fixed to make it "lossless", then it should really be two different commands, i.e. "rotate image data CCW" is one, and "lossless rotate CCW by exif" that is only available in browser but not view. Which is much less ideal than just having the same in both places, but at least that wouldn't ambiguate two completely different operations with the same name.
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xnview
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by xnview »

when you are in viewer mode, it's like other app, you make some change (rotation, adjust, ...) and you save the result...

In browser, you think that we must use another term in Browser mode? 'Rotate' can be lossless or not following settings
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metal450
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by metal450 »

>In browser, you think that we must use another term in Browser mode? 'Rotate' can be lossless or not following settings

Right, but the menu item/command name in both modes is always "lossless", regardless of settings. So it feels extremely not intuitive/confusing, when there's one "lossless" command name that's only lossless under special conditions: in viewer mode if resolution is a particular thing, in browse mode if resolution is a particular thing or settings are a particular thing (but command name is still the same even though it's doing something completely & totally different). So there's all these different things it can be doing, and unless you know everything about how the application is internally implemented you have no idea which will happen. That wouldn't be the case if you had:

* Rotate Image Data CCW ( or CW). Note that the name says what it's actually doing, and that it doesn't say "lossless" in the name, since it may or may not be - perhaps a tooltip could specify that this is lossless if and only if the resolution is a power of 2, otherwise it will throw out some pixels from the image.
* Lossless Rotate CCW (or CW). A different command for a different operation, & only available in Browser mode.
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xnview
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by xnview »

metal450 wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 3:18 pm Right, but the menu item/command name in both modes is always "lossless", regardless of settings. So it feels extremely not intuitive/confusing, when there's one "lossless" command name that's only lossless under special conditions: in viewer mode if resolution is a particular thing, in browse mode if resolution is a particular thing or settings are a particular thing (but command name is still the same even though it's doing something completely & totally different). So there's all these different things it can be doing, and unless you know everything about how the application is internally implemented you have no idea which will happen. That wouldn't be the case if you had:
Lossless? Sorry but perhaps we talk about not same thing.

You talk about 'Rotate' or 'Jpeg lossless transformations>Rotate' in viewer?
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metal450
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by metal450 »

We're talking about Tools->Jpeg lossless transformations -> rotate clockwise & rotate counter clockwise. As we've discussed:

* In viewer mode, this may not be lossless as it will destructively throw away pixels if the resolution is/isn't power of two
* In browse mode, the same will occur
* Unless the option is changed, in which case in viewer mode, the identically named command will do something completely different: it will rotate by exif. In that case, it will truly be non-destructive, unlike the other 2 cases which may or may not be destructive depending on the image resolution
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by xnview »

My apologizes...
metal450 wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 3:28 pm * In viewer mode, this may not be lossless as it will destructively throw away pixels if the resolution is/isn't power of two
* In browse mode, the same will occur
Yes, the lossless rotation works like that (JPEG library)
* Unless the option is changed, in which case in viewer mode, the identically named command will do something completely different: it will rotate by exif. In that case, it will truly be non-destructive, unlike the other 2 cases which may or may not be destructive depending on the image resolution
which option? They work in the same way
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metal450
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by metal450 »

> which option?

The one we've been talking about, Settings>Browser>Misc

Really not sure why we've been talking in circles here, is some part of this still unclear? The issue is that several very different operations are called the exact same thing. This is extremely unclear/ambiguous UI. "Lossless Jpeg Rotation" is used to refer to both "rotate image data" and "rotate by exif", and additionally, when it is used to refer to "rotate image data," it may not actually be lossless, despite the fact that it's mislabeled as "lossless".
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by xnview »

Sorry but it's my fault:
metal450 wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:49 pm > which option?

The one we've been talking about, Settings>Browser>Misc
Settings>Browser>Misc is for 'Rotate' icon in browser not 'Rotate lossless'
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metal450
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by metal450 »

See? Even after all this discussion I was apparently still unclear. I highly doubt most users have any idea how to untangle all these similarly-named options.

So where is "Rotate" in the menu - it's different than Tools->Jpeg Lossless Transformations->Rotate? In the list of named commands to add to the toolbar, I only see "Rotate" not "Rotate Lossless."

In any event, again, what I keep saying is that it just feels like all these similar but distinct operations should be clearly labeled as completely distinct in the menus/commands list. If something behaves differently in view vs browser, they should be named differently. And not have their behaviors changed to something completely different from the options. We have: Rotate jpeg image data (aka what is currently called "lossless" but is not guaranteed to be lossless), we have "change exif rotation value", and maybe there's some third thing now, just "Rotate?" I'm not sure what that does. But if there are different operations that do different things, they should be clearly named by what they're actually doing, and the same command name shouldn't do 2 different things based on context, as no user would be able to guess about what's going on under the hood.
metal450
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Re: 0.93.1 EXIF Rotation Not Updating Timestamp

Post by metal450 »

Is this going to be fixed? I just had photo data destructively modified yet again (rather than just flipping the exif rotation bit as intended)