MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Ideas for improvements and requests for new features in XnView MP

Moderators: XnTriq, xnview

Jou
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:38 pm
Contact:

MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by Jou » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:17 pm

The thumbnail zoom bar is really good, I like it a lot.
But most of my pictures are 16:10, so quite some space is wasted.

What about making the thumbnail aspect ratio selectable? The usable (drop down menu) list might be:
1:1
5:4
4:3
16:10
16:9

This ratio should apply to the thumbnails, and should NOT include the text below the thumbnail.
Gaming in 4k / 6k / 8k / 15k? Yes! http://joumxyzptlk.de

User avatar
JohnFredC
XnThusiast
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: Sarasota Florida

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by JohnFredC » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:43 pm

The MP thumbs can be very beautiful and the custom labels very informative.

But management of thumb styles is essentially non-existent. No software does it properly but MP's (and also XnView Legacy's) behavior to re-cache thumbs on every thumb resize makes the thumb size slider essentially too slow to be useful in most situations I encounter.

I strongly support preset thumb aspect ratios as part of a complete rethinking of thumb management as discussed many times elsewhere in these fori over the years.
John

Jou
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:38 pm
Contact:

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by Jou » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:32 pm

Well in xnview legacy I can enter any pixels for x and y I want.

The problem with the legacy is rather: You use mouse-wheel for scrolling and xnview scrolls 2.482754 or 3.12321 rows per wheel-click. ( I managed to find the right thumb heights to scroll in exactely 2 thumb steps). XnView MP does fixed "one picture row per wheel-click".

Ou, I smell my forgotten feature request...
Gaming in 4k / 6k / 8k / 15k? Yes! http://joumxyzptlk.de

marsh
XnThusiast
Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 6:31 am

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by marsh » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:50 pm


User avatar
xnview
Author of XnView
Posts: 31918
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:31 am
Location: France
Contact:

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by xnview » Mon May 07, 2012 9:13 am

So you would like to enter your own values for thumbnail size, right?
Pierre.

Jou
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:38 pm
Contact:

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by Jou » Mon May 07, 2012 10:16 am

xnview wrote:So you would like to enter your own values for thumbnail size, right?
Yes that would be a solution, independent from the slider.
BUT: I LIKE the slider, it is SO convenient to change the thumbnail size, I use it a lot. Especially since I started experimenting switching between 1920x1200 (=native monitor resolution) and the downsampling mode 2880x1800 on the Desktop, not just in games.

From my point of view: A drop-down menu where I can set the aspect ratio of the thumbnail would be the best usability and my preferred solution. Whether an extra tool for the tool-bar or fixed drop down box left or right from the slider, I leave that up to you.
My default AR-List suggestion: see the topic, 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9, but make that list editable for people who need strange AR settings like 2.25:1 (Hollywood size), 3:1 or 4:1 for viewing a folder with panorama pictures, or those who have the monitor turned by 90° and prefer 3:4 or 9:16.
The default AR (when none has yet been selected or on first start) could be deducted from the monitor resolution, or 16:10 when the detection failed due to awkward resolutions.

While you are at it: can the slider range and the size of the slider control be made editable in the options?
Range is obvious: It is currently limited to 1000, but when viewing the panorama folder I need a maximum 1800 (or 2600 with the crazy downsample display mode) and an AR of at least 4:1 *g*.
Size of the slider: When you make the range editable, allowing me to increase it to > 2000 a bigger slider is needed or the steps would be too big.
Making that in one option might better instead of two, i.e. slider range controls the slider size too, no need for two extra options. But I am unsure about linking those two into one.
Gaming in 4k / 6k / 8k / 15k? Yes! http://joumxyzptlk.de

User avatar
JohnFredC
XnThusiast
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: Sarasota Florida

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by JohnFredC » Tue May 08, 2012 4:27 pm

Just to expand on my comment above:

2Pierre

Please think this through very carefully before implementing! Mr. Librarian can give you a long list of forum posts for custom thumbnails and the current slow behavior of the thumb panel. Please please read through them and implement a comprehensive solution.

No more band-aids! 8)

Here is my summary:
  • a. On thumb size change, never read the original file more than once without asking permission. If permission denied, rescale the thumb image (in memory) instead of re-reading the file. ("Permission" could be an INI toggle.)
    b. On thumb size change, do not re-cache any thumb images without asking permission. If permission denied, always rescale the cached image (in memory) without resaving. ("Permission" could be an INI toggle.)
    c. Keep several (3?) pre-rendered thumbs in the cache, select the most appropriate one for the requested thumb size, and rescale in memory between sizes (see a and b). Allow user to select which (and how many?) sizes to cache.
    d. Define thumb dimensions by these parameters:
    • 1) Image aspect ratio (see above requests and older posts in forum)
      2) Number of thumbs acrosss
      3) Horizontal gap between thumbs
      4) Vertical gap between thumbs
    e. Always completely fill the horizontal dimension of the thumbpanel with the number of thumbs requested while respecting the aspect ratio and gaps settings. No more wasted screen space! 8)
We really need a topic that consolidates ALL the many thumb request posts. This topic has been beaten to death over the years without much result. Sorry to word things so strongly, but I feel strongly about this topic. :(

Try this:
  • • Load up a folder with an hundred 100Mp pngs then use MP to navigate to it. Wait while MP creates/caches the thumbs.

    • Now move the thumbs size slider.

    :shock:
John

User avatar
XnTriq
Moderator & Librarian
Posts: 5456
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:00 am
Location: Ref Desk

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by XnTriq » Tue May 08, 2012 8:00 pm


marsh
XnThusiast
Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 6:31 am

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by marsh » Wed May 09, 2012 12:58 am

Why not store miniatures individually on all platforms?
JohnFredC wrote: c. Keep several (3?) pre-rendered thumbs in the cache, select the most appropriate one for the requested thumb size, and rescale in memory between sizes (see a and b). Allow user to select which (and how many?) sizes to cache.
Linux applications often use folders named large, normal, small.
/home/user/.thumbnails/normal/14a3395809094beba5d2ae338cc61aee.png
It is reassuring to have these in plain sight where they can be easily salvaged.

User avatar
xnview
Author of XnView
Posts: 31918
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:31 am
Location: France
Contact:

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by xnview » Wed May 09, 2012 8:00 am

Yes, i know :(
But i can't save multiple resolution thumbnails in the database (already big)
Perhaps save a higher resolution like embedded thumbnail in jpeg (192x120)??
Pierre.

Jou
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:38 pm
Contact:

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by Jou » Wed May 09, 2012 8:20 am

JohnFredC wrote:
  • a. On thumb size change, never read the original file more than once without asking permission. If permission denied, rescale the thumb image (in memory) instead of re-reading the file. ("Permission" could be an INI toggle.)
    b. On thumb size change, do not re-cache any thumb images without asking permission. If permission denied, always rescale the cached image (in memory) without resaving. ("Permission" could be an INI toggle.)
The ESC-Key stops thumbnail (re)creation, isn't that enough? The speed of XnViewMP when reading for thumbnails is way faster than classic xnview, and as far as I can see xnviewmp starts reading for thumbs after you release the mouse button. An .ini option would be OK but IMHO unnecessary, and I wouldn't want it to ask every time.
JohnFredC wrote:
  • c. Keep several (3?) pre-rendered thumbs in the cache, select the most appropriate one for the requested thumb size, and rescale in memory between sizes (see a and b). Allow user to select which (and how many?) sizes to cache.
Only makes sense if the thumbnail size wouldn't be (currently) available in ~ 200 steps, maybe in +1 increments via .ini hack. A "history" of cached thumbsizes looks OK to me, though I would test that before actually activating that option.
JohnFredC wrote:
  • d. Define thumb dimensions by these parameters:
    • 1) Image aspect ratio (see above requests and older posts in forum)
      2) Number of thumbs acrosss
      3) Horizontal gap between thumbs
      4) Vertical gap between thumbs
Can you explain your wish number 2 ? The number of thumbs across is dependent on the thumbnail size, do you want to "make 4 pics" and the thumbs resize accordingly with the size of the xnview window or do you want them so we have horizontal scrollbars? I don't want to scroll horizontal, I do that enough in the directory pane already where it is unavoidable.
3 and 4 are one option for me, and I bet they are already on the list since the classic xnview offers "border" options. So I guess that is just a matter of patience *g*.
JohnFredC wrote:
  • e. Always completely fill the horizontal dimension of the thumbpanel with the number of thumbs requested while respecting the aspect ratio and gaps settings. No more wasted screen space! 8)
That is the same as "1" in you list above. But that raises questions: What to do on window resize? What to do on folder pane resize? What if people have the task bar on the left or right (allows more programs before grouping kicks in) so xnview does not use the whole horizontal space? Wish "1" and "e" don't make sense to me since the implementation causes a huge amount of other questions and usability issues.
JohnFredC wrote:
  • • Load up a folder with an hundred 100Mp pngs then use MP to navigate to it. Wait while MP creates/caches the thumbs. Now move the thumbs size slider. :shock:
[/list]
Same as the first few lines in you post, you tend to repeat often within one post? Hit ESC. Stops thumbnail generation. XnView then uses the last stored thumbnail size and resizes that to the current size. Works fine for me, nothing to do there (or much much much later).
Only 100 MP or MB ? When I create panorama's from games I sometimes end up with .PNG file sizes > 2 GB before jpg-ing them, the largest one (in mega-pixel) is currently 27000x17000.

The only thing is that xnview just crashed on my games-panorama folder when doing "change thumbnail size and hit ESC" several times. Possibly allocation error when using fresh generated and older resized thumbnails?
Last edited by Jou on Wed May 09, 2012 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
Gaming in 4k / 6k / 8k / 15k? Yes! http://joumxyzptlk.de

Jou
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:38 pm
Contact:

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by Jou » Wed May 09, 2012 8:26 am

xnview wrote:Yes, i know :(
But i can't save multiple resolution thumbnails in the database (already big)
Perhaps save a higher resolution like embedded thumbnail in jpeg (192x120)??
No please don't! 192x100 thumbnails resized? Is this a picture of my aunt or my uncle? Where are my detailed thumbs? *sniff*
You could make that as an option though, set the maximum stored thumbnail size in number of pixels (same maximum for x and y), and enlarge that one if needed. That would be a usable way to go, but lower priority than aspect ration and border size.
Gaming in 4k / 6k / 8k / 15k? Yes! http://joumxyzptlk.de

Jou
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:38 pm
Contact:

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by Jou » Wed May 09, 2012 8:39 am

marsh wrote:Why not store miniatures individually on all platforms?
Linux applications often use folders named large, normal, small.
/home/user/.thumbnails/normal/14a3395809094beba5d2ae338cc61aee.png
It is reassuring to have these in plain sight where they can be easily salvaged.
Na, filesystem clutter without end? And if you have large amounts of pictures (including your LAN, i.e. NAS) having the same amount of single files in you home directory (or %appdata%) ? The horror! Besides, I think xnviewmp stores a bit more information than just the pure thumbnails, that would make extra data (i.e. files) to be stored besides the thumbnails. It would also require checking the contents of the folder and files if a user starts to play around there.

SQLite is currently used, a good choice (better than the .zip as in earlier xnviewmp versions).

The only useful request about thumbnail caching would be (on Windows) to make it store the xnview.db in %LOCALAPPDATA% so that doesn't wander around with server based user profiles. Just like browsers who store their browser cache in %LOCALAPPDATA% to.
Gaming in 4k / 6k / 8k / 15k? Yes! http://joumxyzptlk.de

User avatar
JohnFredC
XnThusiast
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: Sarasota Florida

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by JohnFredC » Wed May 09, 2012 12:53 pm

2Jou Thanks for your detailed responses to my post. We need more such dialog in the forum.

For now, I'll just address one of your questions:
Can you explain your wish number 2 ? The number of thumbs across is dependent on the thumbnail size, do you want to "make 4 pics" and the thumbs resize accordingly with the size of the xnview window or do you want them so we have horizontal scrollbars? I don't want to scroll horizontal, I do that enough in the directory pane already where it is unavoidable
No horizontal scrollbar, no wasted space. Always an integer number of thumbs across the thumb panel.

I first got this idea from Adobe Lightroom. Lightroom always fills the thumb panel without wasted space. There is a thumbsize slider that isn't calibrated in pixels or "thumbs across". You just set the slider to a thumbsize you like, and then Lightroom maintains a "full" panel...meaning that the number of thumbs across the panel is always an integer (no horizontal scrollbar!)

It works like this in LR:
  • 1. When the LR thumb panel width is an integer multiple of the selected thumbsize, then the user-selected thumbsize (via the slider) controls the number of thumbs across.

    2. When the LR thumb panel width is a fractional multiple of the selected thumbsize (say: 2.3 thumbs) then LR fractionally resizes the thumbs to fit the nearest (previous) integer multiple.
So LR subtly varies the size of the thumb "around" the user-selected size to maintain an horizontally-filled panel of thumbs. The gap between the thumbs is fixed.

LR 3.6 (and below, I haven't tried v4) does NOT offer an aspect ratio choice. But an aspect ratio choice would be really great, hence my concurrence with the suggestion (above).

I am not opposed to MP varying the gap between the thumbs (instead of the thumb size) in order to fit an integer number across the thumb panel, but prefer LR's more visually pleasing result.

Here's hoping others contribute their ideas and preferences.
John

Jou
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:38 pm
Contact:

Re: MP 0.48: Thumbnails aspect ration 1:1/5:4/4:3/16:10/16:9

Post by Jou » Wed May 09, 2012 1:21 pm

JohnFredC wrote:2Jou Thanks for your detailed responses to my post. We need more such dialog in the forum.

For now, I'll just address one of your questions:
Can you explain your wish number 2 ? The number of thumbs across is dependent on the thumbnail size, do you want to "make 4 pics" and the thumbs resize accordingly with the size of the xnview window or do you want them so we have horizontal scrollbars? I don't want to scroll horizontal, I do that enough in the directory pane already where it is unavoidable
No horizontal scrollbar, no wasted space. Always an integer number of thumbs across the thumb panel.
_now_ I understand better what you mean. It is a good suggestion.
Following behaviour would be my preference: Set the thumbnail size not as a "this size and nothing else" rather generate the thumbnails (and cache) in the set size, but if they don't fit perfectly use scaled down (never scaled up) thumbs to make a perfect fit. The code to downscale generated thumbs only for viewing already exists and is very fast since xnviewmp already does it that way when moving the zoom-slider before releasing the mouse button.
I prefer downscale-only over upscale since upscaling gives no gain in information, maybe an option if enough think upscaling is needed.

Matches your thought?
Gaming in 4k / 6k / 8k / 15k? Yes! http://joumxyzptlk.de

Post Reply