More consistent menu structure

Ideas for improvements and requests for new features in XnView Classic

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Clo
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An image is better---

Post by Clo » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:04 pm

:arrow: Pierre et alter

:) Good evening,

Pierre wrote
But it's no so easy!!
• Let know that Christian Ghisler himself has read that thread… He told me that in his opinion,
isn't that very difficult to implement the menus “TC-like” in a programme written in C+ - that's the case for XnView. I trust him.
- For once, it's more complicated with Delphi, but still he done in TC…
- Just an exemple to show that Paul and I mean, I think it's self-explanatory :

Image

You and Clo had requested the customisation of toolbar, i have added it but almost nobody use it ! (even if i think that it's a good feature)
- This is indeed a good feature, despite it isn't quite achevied…
But it's not quite true that we were the only ones to request that !
- Use the Forum Search, or call Mr. Librarian, and you'll find out a pretty bunch of threads from users
wishing “to add button¦s” while this was impossible !
- Aside, the skins designers didn't provide extra icons for these supplemental buttons, I did, but this is insufficient.
- Buttons (all) and menus use the internal commands, so I guess the two things are linked, and it's still on-topic to quote that.
…and many commercial users don't purchase licenses :(
• I regret such a situation, indeed. But this is not rare in the software-world, alas. Let know that legion of TC home-users never pay, and that only the honest companies allow Ch. Ghisler and his brother to live decently, and to offer (till now and as so further as possible) a very cheap licence that you pay ONCE only in you life…
- Difficult to found out the same advantageous licence among millions of softs, with regard to the ratio Quality¦Price…

Ouistiti wrote
…and you'll waste more time later changing continually one item, then another, while finally nobody'll be satisfied with the inaccessible hard-coded structure…
• Indeed, Paul! Just looking at the above, I can predict that such useless thousands lines of useless sagas are not ended yet…
“Edit your .MNU file, and change that you want. Please, see the Help 4. —> c.”
Hurrah for the pie !

helmut wrote
… And there are many much more important things to do, e.g. text file based language support.
:shock: But THIS IS part of that change !
…I think we should return and discuss Wolfgang's initial issue which is making the menu structure more consistent.
• Like Paul said already : »…finally nobody'll be satisfied with the inaccessible hard-coded structure…«
- I would bet that wolfgangbeyer himself'ld be happy with classic customizable menus…;)

:mrgreen: Regards,
Claude
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Last edited by Clo on Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by helmut » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:12 pm

Clo, currently I really don't like your discussion and arguments and the tone in it.

First: Stop putting pressure on Pierre regarding flexible menus.

Second: Even if flexible menus was just one day of work to implement this, it still would be wasted time because there are MUCH more important issues than a fully flexible menu structure. Just browse the forum with open eyes and you will see **lots** of those issues.

Regardless of the menu structure is hard coded or flexible, the initial menu structure is very essential and important because this is what all people see and most people will use. So let's continue the initial discussion to achieve a clear menu structure for XnView.

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Post by ouistiti » Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:20 pm

:arrow: Helmut
" the initial menu structure is very essential and important because this is what all people see and most people will use."
- Nobody said that it isn't important to have a default menu built as the best as possible. But the “best” menus -according to your criteriaæ- willn't be satisfactory for X… or Y… user sooner or later, and that should lead to discuss again and again uselessly.

- And according to competent opinions, it isn't longer to set classic menus. The goal is not to bore Pierre, but to get a better flexible feature, thus, a better programme and save time later.
Stop putting pressure on Pierre regarding flexible menus.
Pierre doesn't need a majordomo... and his answers are clear enough.

Regards

Paul
L'important n'est pas de convaincre, mais de donner à réfléchir.
The important thing is not to convince, but to incite to think.

1,77245385090552...

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Clo
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No threat, please !

Post by Clo » Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:04 am

—> helmut

• Hi !
Clo, currently I really don't like your discussion and arguments and the tone in it.
• Which tone, please ? My speach is correct and polite, I challenge you to prove the opposite…
- You don't like the opinion of a very competent programmer who produces a well-known software …
I get arguments and info where they are, sorry.
First: Stop putting pressure on Pierre regarding flexible menus.
• Which pressure ? I started the discussion about the language stuff change TWO YEARS AGO exactly…
Indeed it includes the GUI strings and the menus, this is a single whole which can't be split into crumbs.
- I spent hours to draw a mock-up for a command manager proposed HERE five months ago, no reply…
- Paul-Ouistiti and I spent also a lot of hours to propose menus-templates, sent more than four months ago : no reply…
…Second: Even if flexible menus was just one day of work to implement this, it still would be wasted time…
- Not at all, anyway the change to text-translations with frozen core-embedded menus needs roughly the same time.
…Just browse the forum with open eyes and you will see **lots** of those issues.
… and a lot of others not fixed yet I'm bound to live with, waiting the moment when Pierre can fix up them. I wait…
So let's continue the initial discussion to achieve a clear menu structure for XnView.
Ouistiti wrote
- Nobody said that it isn't important to have a default menu built as the best as possible. But the “best” menus -according to your criteriaæ- willn't be satisfactory for X… or Y… user sooner or later, and that should lead to discuss again and again uselessly. …
• I agree, and I would add even that regarding the number and sizes of the menus, you never will get better than the “least worse”.
Hoping to make that huge thingy “clear” and really handy for all users is utopian.
And finally, when I say :
» - I would bet that wolfgangbeyer himself'ld be happy with classic customizable menus…;) «, it isn't a guess, it's a fact…

:mrgreen: G.
Claude
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Last edited by Clo on Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ckit » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:21 am

OMG, what a mess!
Pierre\Helmut this needs to be resolved quickly and I'm not taking sides either.
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Post by helmut » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:50 am

I'm not Pierre's or anyones major domo, I simply want to make sure that XnView progesses in the best way. If Pierre would implement these flexible menus it would be no good because the benefit is questionable and there are so many other important issues. Let's focus on the most important things and not waste any energy in discussing and implementing this.

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Post by ckit » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:55 am

Ok, I'm fine with that but it looks like we could lose some long time XnView users.
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Post by XnTriq » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:30 am

I'm desperately trying to understand this discussion: Is Pierre obligated to justify to us FREEware (free as in free beer) users what he does or does not do with his program, his code?

Just asking...

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Post by helmut » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:38 am

ckit wrote:Ok, I'm fine with that but it looks like we could lose some long time XnView users.
I hope that Clo and Paul continue contributing, here. As written before, my one and only intention is to bring XnView forward and into the right direction. Sometimes this even means to tell people that their idea is good but not important enough to be implemented, now. Perhaps you know the saying "It's important to do things right, but it's more important to do the right thing.".

Above I got annoyed with Clo's persistence for something that is not really needed and his statement "I trust him [Christian Ghisler]" which can be read as "I don't trust you [Pierre]". Sorry if my above tone and reaction was too harsh.

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Post by Stitscher » Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:05 pm

helmut wrote: Perhaps you know the saying "It's important to do things right, but it's more important to do the right thing.".
I know it.
You should keep it in mind, while making decisions for others what an important feature is and what not.

Keep on figthing, Guys. ;)

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Post by ckit » Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:13 pm

Stitscher,
Fighting won't solve anything!

It's time to close this thread.
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Post by Stitscher » Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:18 pm

ckit wrote:Stitscher,
Fighting won't solve anything!
But maybe it helps to make clear that menus as text (flexibility in general) is important.

Stitscher

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Post by Icfu » Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:09 pm

I'm desperately trying to understand this discussion: Is Pierre obligated to justify to us FREEware (free as in free beer) users what he does or does not do with his program, his code?
It makes no difference if you develop freeware, shareware or whatever. The only important thing is if you wanna be respected by your users/customers and if you respect them. With the approach "MY program, My code, MY decision" you should better not release a program but develop it for your kids only.
It's time to close this thread.
Closing threads doesn't help solving problems. Asking to close threads is even worse as it shows a lack of respect for no reason.

Anyway:
This thread should actually not be needed because making any plans about switching to INI files for translation and at the same time not finding a way to also implement free menu structuring seems like a waste of time and energy for me, especially for the translators. As internal command support is already there, also implementing them in fully configurable menus is the only logical decision.

Instead of wasting time about discussing if entry "X" under "A" should be moved to "C" under "Z" it's much more efficient to leave this job to the users. As it's not possible to please them all, the default menu should concentrate on making the most important commands as easily accessible as possible. Right now the menu is more some kind of a complete mess.

I am just an outsider, using Imagine as my main image viewer because it's fast and structured, so don't take me too serious. ;)

Icfu

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Clo
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Do you like the sauerkraut ?

Post by Clo » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:49 pm

:arrow: helmut

• Hi !
…As written before, my one and only intention is to bring XnView forward and into the right direction.
• Doing so, you don't…
…If Pierre would implement these flexible menus it would be no good because the benefit is questionable …
• How can you claim that ? Do you use TC and such menus ? I don't guess, otherwise you wouldn't write such a statement.
- Didn't you never write DOS boot-menus ? It's the same basic syntax, simple and that Windows supports pretty well…
{ Anecdote }
- I had an old neighbour a long while ago. When one asked to her :
¤ “Mrs. Duclos, do you like the sauerkraut ?” she answered :
- “O, not at all !”
¤ “Did you taste it already ?”
- “No, never…”
PAUSE…
…his statement "I trust him [Christian Ghisler]" which can be read as "I don't trust you [Pierre]". …
• This is your reading, and I think it's a bit specious, even shocking. This is not my state of mind.
Whether I wouldn't trust Pierre, I would be away for a while… I meant only that it's a sound irrefutable info, no more, no less.

• Some (temporary) last thoughts :
- The status of the programme doesn't matter here a lot about that important feature detail.
For example, there are some TC-clones “Gratis” (Freeware) which use the same structured menus, i.e. Unreal Commander.
- Saying that a slapdashed feature instead of a nice normal one could be sufficient for users who don't pay anything
is that a French sentence expresses like :
To give ham to the pigs” (To cast pearls before swine). On one hand, the home-users are not pigs, and on the other hand,
I can assure you that the pigs like the jam… Image

• When I started the thread about the languages (and menus) as text,
I didn't think even one second that the menus could be else than classic.
Whether our Dear Author should had answered in a more verbose way, or even simply answered ,
this could be solved already (along two years), instead of discovering that by chance in this thread so late
(thanks again to wolfgangbeyer who started it, anyway).

:mrgreen: G.
Claude
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Nice abstract

Post by Clo » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:51 pm

:arrow: icfu

:) Hello Jeff !

• You sum it up exactly, thank you for that message.
…making any plans about switching to INI files for translation and at the same time not finding a way to also implement free menu structuring seems like a waste of time and energy for me, especially for the translators.
• It's obvious… I fear text-strings having a command-name marking off, pretty annoying to spot an entry,
while classic menus are easy to translate and to check quickly on the screen…
- Setting only text-strings is to make cheeseparing economies… and waste 100 times the short “saved” time later.

:mrgreen: VG
Claude
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