More consistent menu structure

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wolfgangbeyer
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More consistent menu structure

Post by wolfgangbeyer » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:05 pm

XnView offers very many menu topics. Some of them are difficult to find because they change their location depending of the XnView mode:

* In the thumbs mode "Export" is in "Tools", in the image view mode it is in "File".
* "Search" is always in "Tools" but "Finding similar files" is there only in the thumbs mode.
* In the thumbs mode "Set comment" is in "Metadata", in the image view mode "Edit comment" (which is nearly the same) is in "Edit".

I don’t know if I only don't catche the intention behind this different locations.
Wolfgang Beyer
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Re: More consistent menu structure

Post by xnview » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:28 am

wolfgangbeyer wrote:XnView offers very many menu topics. Some of them are difficult to find because they change their location depending of the XnView mode:

* In the thumbs mode "Export" is in "Tools", in the image view mode it is in "File".
* "Search" is always in "Tools" but "Finding similar files" is there only in the thumbs mode.
* In the thumbs mode "Set comment" is in "Metadata", in the image view mode "Edit comment" (which is nearly the same) is in "Edit".

I don’t know if I only don't catche the intention behind this different locations.
Yes, perhaps we must check menu structure...
Pierre.

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Clo
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Easier----

Post by Clo » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:24 pm

:arrow: Pierre

:) Hello !
Yes, perhaps we must check menu structure…
…switching finally to text menu files
8)

:mrgreen: KR
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Re: Easier----

Post by xnview » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:19 pm

Clo wrote::arrow: Pierre

:) Hello !
Yes, perhaps we must check menu structure…
…switching finally to text menu files
8)
The menu structure will not be in the language text files
Pierre.

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????

Post by Clo » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:17 pm

:arrow: Pierre

:?: Which kind of stuff are you cooking ? All GOOD menus as text I saw till today have their own structures,
exactly like the ones in the resources currently, and like the templates we sent to you -the easiest way to change-
they need only to understand… :evil:

• If you plan only text strings, sorry, I say “ON STRIKE” definitely.

:mrgreen: R.
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Re: ????

Post by xnview » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:11 am

Clo wrote::arrow: Pierre

:?: Which kind of stuff are you cooking ? All GOOD menus as text I saw till today have their own structures,
exactly like the ones in the resources currently, and like the templates we sent to you -the easiest way to change-
they need only to understand… :evil:

• If you plan only text strings, sorry, I say “ON STRIKE” definitely.
Sorry but i can't add menu struture...
Pierre.

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ouistiti
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Post by ouistiti » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:25 pm

:arrow: Pierre

Bonsoir,
Sorry but i can't add menu struture...
:shock: You can't? Indeed, you can. The menus in Total Commander are built such as. I know the pie :“ Ah ! Delphi ! …
- Imagine viewer has also the same structured text menus : “Ah ! … C+ !

- Sorry, but my (unpleasant) feeling is rather that you don't want to allow the user to customize the menus at will, you don't want to give all commands, and you don't want to realize a decent manager like this has been suggested (and unanswered, even the French translation).

- Only text strings is a poor improvement… This is just sufficient for a small text editor, but not for a complex programme like XnView having (too) numerous (too) big menus.
So, it's replacing a crap with a dung… :(

- Such a frozen / locked way doesn't the trick, IMHO, it's too far the flexible menus I'm in the habit to work with in TC.

Clo wrote
If you plan only text strings, sorry, I say “ON STRIKE” definitely.
- Hm… Needs two persons at least? Let's respect the Law ! I follow.

Regards,

Paul
L'important n'est pas de convaincre, mais de donner à réfléchir.
The important thing is not to convince, but to incite to think.

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Post by xnview » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:39 am

ouistiti wrote: - Sorry, but my (unpleasant) feeling is rather that you don't want to allow the user to customize the menus at will, you don't want to give all commands, and you don't want to realize a decent manager like this has been suggested (and unanswered, even the French translation).

- Only text strings is a poor improvement… This is just sufficient for a small text editor, but not for a complex programme like XnView having (too) numerous (too) big menus.
So, it's replacing a crap with a dung… :(
No it's not that 'i don't want' but i don't want to work on such feature many days, It's not so easy. And i'm not sure that professional users want this before other requested features...
For example, about ID, i change all ID every time, so i can not use same ID between version...
And on thing, TC is a shareware product, not XnView :-) so i'm alone to develop XnView, and to try to add all requests...
Pierre.

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ouistiti
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Post by ouistiti » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:34 pm

:arrow: Pierre

Hello !
No it's not that 'i don't want' but i don't want to work on such feature many days, It's not so easy. …
- There is a clever way to shorten such a job, Clo and I tried to help with templates made simply by converting the menus from the resources into text, it's very easy ! Not any feed back about that work… :|
…And i'm not sure that professional users want this before other requested features...
- And I guess that these pro users could appreciate the capability to tweak the menus according to their own specific needs…
…For example, about ID, i change all ID every time, so i can not use same ID between version...
- That's not a crucial point, even the whole list of commands as names could do the trick. In TC, both work : Either Numbers (stable here, though), or Names like cmd_xxxx. The users can even create their own commands em_yyyyy… Pause.
…And on(e) thing, TC is a shareware product, not XnView :)
- I don't see the relationship with the problem…XnView is free of charge for home users only… Tiny difference.
…so i'm alone to develop XnView, and to try to add all requests...
- Christian Ghisler is also the only developer of Total Commander, but he had made the good choice a decade ago…
- Imagine use the structured text menus, and it's freeware… and also a one-man product…
- You'll not save a lot of hours doing like you say, and you'll waste more time later changing continually one item, then another, while finally nobody'll be satisfied with the inaccessible hard-coded structure…
- This almost never occurs for TC, we have the irrefutable big pie :
“Edit your .MNU file, and change that you want. Please, see the Help 4. —> c.

Regards,
Paul
L'important n'est pas de convaincre, mais de donner à réfléchir.
The important thing is not to convince, but to incite to think.

1,77245385090552...

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Post by xnview » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:26 am

ouistiti wrote:
No it's not that 'i don't want' but i don't want to work on such feature many days, It's not so easy. …
- There is a clever way to shorten such a job, Clo and I tried to help with templates made simply by converting the menus from the resources into text, it's very easy ! Not any feed back about that work… :|
But it's no so easy!!
…And i'm not sure that professional users want this before other requested features...
- And I guess that these pro users could appreciate the capability to tweak the menus according to their own specific needs…
No, it's not the feedback that i have. Perhaps it could be good to make a Pool for that??
You and Clo had requested the customisation of toolbar, i have added it but almost nobody use it :-(! (even if i think that it's a good feature)
…And on(e) thing, TC is a shareware product, not XnView :)
- I don't see the relationship with the problem…XnView is free of charge for home users only… Tiny difference.
…so i'm alone to develop XnView, and to try to add all requests...
What i means is that Ghisler works only on TC, I don't work all the time on XnView, i have other project, and i need to earn money a little :-) and many commercial users don't purchase licenses :-(
Pierre.

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Post by nightflyer » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:43 am

For all my programming knowledge, it all depends on how program is built and what programming framework is used.
Microsoft for example made new interface for Office in such strange way, because they discovered, among others, that users extremely rarely modify menus or toolbars.
The same goes for translation with text files or dlls.
Much work can be required to satisfy tiny minority of users.
-=nightflyer=-

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helmut
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Post by helmut » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:09 pm

nightflyer wrote:For all my programming knowledge, it all depends on how program is built and what programming framework is used.
Microsoft for example made new interface for Office in such strange way, because they discovered, among others, that users extremely rarely modify menus or toolbars.
The same goes for translation with text files or dlls.
Much work can be required to satisfy tiny minority of users.
I fully agree, nightflyer. Changing menus structure and name might be a good idea for some users but if the existing structure is good and intuitive, few people will complain and quickly adopt it. And support might become a challenge. So the benefit of this is questionable. And there are many much more important things to do, e.g. text file based language support.

I think we should return and discuss Wolfgang's initial issue which is making the menu structure more consistent.
* In the thumbs mode "Export" is in "Tools", in the image view mode it is in "File".
Hmm, this one is difficult: In the image view you have one object the image and thus it is clear that the menu for saving and exporting is "File". But for the browser there's no clear object you are working with. Therefore "File" wouldn't be the right place. A longer while back I have thought about a main menu "Selection" or "Selected" which make clear that they refer to the selected files. "Tools" and "Create" are the menu which deal with the selected files.
* "Search" is always in "Tools" but "Finding similar files" is there only in the thumbs mode.
Right, "Finding similar files" should be possible in image mode, too.
* In the thumbs mode "Set comment" is in "Metadata", in the image view mode "Edit comment" (which is nearly the same) is in "Edit".
There's a EXIF (JPG) comment and a description, I'm not quite sure whether the menu items refer to the same. If it's the same it should perhaps move to the sub menu "Meta data".

Main menu "Create" in image view mode
Currently, in browser mode there's "Tools" and "Create" and in image view mode there's "Tools", only. I think a lot of good could be done to the user interface if there was a menu item "Create" in image mode. Also, all create features should behave the same way and allow for selecting files in the current directory or other directories, see discussion in topic "Unified way for creating file list".

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Post by wolfgangbeyer » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:11 pm

Hi, Helmut,
helmut wrote:
* In the thumbs mode "Export" is in "Tools", in the image view mode it is in "File".
Hmm, this one is difficult: In the image view you have one object the image and thus it is clear that the menu for saving and exporting is "File". But for the browser there's no clear object you are working with. Therefore "File" wouldn't be the right place.
I don’t think that’s the way common users think. They simply expect one feature to be always at the same place. What about offering “Export” always in “File” but in thumb mode if not one single thumb is selected only in gray and disabled?
helmut wrote:"Tools" and "Create" are the menu which deal with the selected files.
In the thumbs mode “Export” in “Tools” applies only to the first of the selected files. Is it a bug?
helmut wrote:"There's a EXIF (JPG) comment and a description, I'm not quite sure whether the menu items refer to the same.
“Comments” in XnView menu are stored in the image but obviously nether in EXIF nor in IPTC. “Descriptions” are stored in the file descript.ion in the image folder.
Wolfgang Beyer
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Post by ouistiti » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:45 pm

:arrow: nigthflyer
"The same goes for translation with text files or dlls."


All modern programmes use text files… That's totally different. Each time I open XnView, I watch pretty mispellings (in French), impossible to correct, that looks bad and turn me nut !
"Much work can be required to satisfy tiny minority of users."
How can you say this ? Many TC users are also XnView users, I assume they would appreciate menus in the same style.
Moreover, while switching to text LNG-MNU, there is no more work using the classic menus, even maybe less !

Regards,

Paul
Last edited by ouistiti on Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
L'important n'est pas de convaincre, mais de donner à réfléchir.
The important thing is not to convince, but to incite to think.

1,77245385090552...

wolfgangbeyer
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Post by wolfgangbeyer » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:48 pm

Some further suggestions for the menu structure:

* In "Edit" I would expect all operations changing the displayed image or all selected images. That includes also the operations "JPEG Lossless transformations" and "Change timestamp".
* "Compare" in "Tools" is perhaps better in "View".
* In the thumb mode "Batch convert" and "Sequence convert" are both in "Tools" but separated very far, whereas in the single image mode they are one after the other.

Perhaps I do not overview the problems arising if all this would be changed, but this are things which I found to be strange on the first sight, and often this first sight is not the worst guide ;-).
Last edited by wolfgangbeyer on Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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